Curse

Bobby2 · May 07, 2008, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It IS true.
Paragon's, although with all the nerfs are still imbalanced, and you'll be extremely stupid to say otherwise.

I'm not ONLY on about PvE, either.

No kidding.
[skill]cruel spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill] - [skill]fall back[/skill]
[skill]eviscerate[/skill][skill]executioner's strike[/skill] - [skill]charge[/skill]
Notice teh similaritahz
Paragons could rule AB

Pyro maniac · May 07, 2008, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

14 Spear
12 Leadership
9 Command

14, 12, 7

or unless you're running a major rune.

Mist Walker Skarloc · May 07, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

Doesn't mattter.

14 Spear
12 Leadership
9 Command
[Cruel Spear] [Spear of Lightning] optional ["Never Surrender"] [Anthem of Flame] ["For Great Justice"] [Aggressive Refrain] Res

["Go For The Eyes"] or ["There's Nothing To Fear"] is my usual optional. Can take [Anthem of Weariness] over [Anthem of Flame] especially against destroyers.

Can take [Spear of Fury] over [Spear of Lightning] if you have conditions flying around to fuel [Cruel Spear].

Can drop res for ["I Am The Strongest"] but I would max Norn before you do that for +20 death.

Puts out decent dps with a bit of party support.

pink

That looks good, very easy skills to get too, thanks a lot for that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

No kidding.
[Cruel Spear][Spear of Lightning] ["Fall Back!"]

[Eviscerate][Executioner's Strike] ["Charge!"]

Wow, they are pretty similar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timebandit

Nope, through the simple fact that adrenaline gain is capped at +100% which you get anyway through either Focused Anger
[Focused Anger]

Or For Great Justice
["For Great Justice!"]

. And vamp is just the best mod ever since and a 'must' with an IAS (or just sundering for the lazy folks).

Ah right, I've never really been into warriors or paragons before so I didn't know about the adrenaline cap. Thanks for telling me that, I'll see about getting a vampiric spear now.

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

Not to mention that GW needs another option for high end PvE other than Ursan. An 8 man Imbagon group can be just as effective as an 8 man Ursan group and sometimes be even more effective due to them not relying on HB monks.

Yeah, because you really need 8 copies of TNTF and SY...

Quote:

I think people generally seem to dislike Paragon's for being a class that can fit two roles in a group at the same time instead of being limited to just the one role. Whats wrong with a high DPS and great defensive ability all in the one class? Do we all want to stay limited to using Ursanway and HB monks?

And unremovable buffs. There are so many things which makes a Paragon overpowered.

If you played PvP, you'll know. But you should really know just by playing one in PvE too.

lustnlood · May 07, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

this is hilarious... even to read...

paragons? overpowered...? lol?

erm.. first off everyone has his own good points... and i stress this for the gazillianth time. paragons just happen to be a great front to midliner... pvp? comon you have to be joking... unless they are in HA or GvG they are erm.... retarded...

try them in AB and Ta or HB or RA... then pls let me know when you have edited the thing... thnx...

some ppl really do talk out of their behinds...

Adja1005 · May 07, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yeah, because you really need 8 copies of TNTF and SY...

No different to a group of players all using the same overpowered skill and spamming 1,2,3 over and over and over. And who said an 8 man Paragon team all have to use SY! and TNTF? From personal experience i've found 1 or 2 SY! and TNTF! users is enough to keep the party stable while the rest focus on damage/tanking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And unremovable buffs. There are so many things which makes a Paragon overpowered.

[skill]Vocal Minority[/skill] and [skill]Soothing Images[/skill] will shut down a Paragon's buffing ability. In PvP using these skills to shut a Paragon down is really easy, people need to do more research i think...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

If you played PvP, you'll know. But you should really know just by playing one in PvE too.

I've had a Paragon since NF's release, can't really disagree with you that there is some advantages they have over other classes. But when compared to say, Monks for example, they aren't that overpowered. I mean are you seriously telling me that a class which has great party wide buffs is more imbalanced than a class that can solo end game bosses, entire dungeons and most areas in PvE?

lustnlood · May 07, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yeah, because you really need 8 copies of TNTF and SY...

And unremovable buffs. There are so many things which makes a Paragon overpowered.

If you played PvP, you'll know. But you should really know just by playing one in PvE too.

ok... story time...

i went to do the quet to get EBON ESCAPE... the eotn skill...

i had a go with my mesmer which runs a very good - moderatly fun build
i killed the mobs .... and i do mean mobs... in under 4 minutes... with my paragon... IMBAGON as many people call it (i dont get it XD) had to do it 4 times because he is so overpowered and so imba spamming 1,2,3...

stop all this trashtalk about overpowered spearthrowing classes and if you really dislike it just leave the forum and let us spearthrowing losers and no experience and noobies spam our 1,2,3 at each other while you go be pro playing something else like um... runescape... with your large capacity for pro gaming im sure you'll rock overthere

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

No different to a group of players all using the same overpowered skill and spamming 1,2,3 over and over and over. And who said an 8 man Paragon team all have to use SY! and TNTF? From personal experience i've found 1 or 2 SY! and TNTF! users is enough to keep the party stable while the rest focus on damage/tanking.

I fail to see the logic here.
1 Imbagon makes the entire party already practically invincible, so you can use the rest of the party for damage to surpass that of an Imbagon.

Quote:

[skill]Vocal Minority[/skill] and [skill]Soothing Images[/skill] will shut down a Paragon's buffing ability. In PvP using these skills to shut a Paragon down is really easy, people need to do more research i think...

Hex removal says hi.
You can say Soothing Images would screw up a Warrior aswell. With your logic, spikes can't happen then.

Again, hex removal.
And as said many times, just because there are counters doesn't stop things being overpowered.
You could say the game is perfectly balanced becasue Blind > Melee and Daze > Casters if you want, it still doesn't derive the truth.

Quote:

I've had a Paragon since NF's release, can't really disagree with you that there is some advantages they have over other classes. But when compared to say, Monks for example, they aren't that overpowered. I mean are you seriously telling me that a class which has great party wide buffs is more imbalanced than a class that can solo end game bosses, entire dungeons and most areas in PvE?

Yeah, you can solo the majority of the game if you really devote yourself to it, study the skillsets ect.
It doesn't take a genious to note down the counters needed, make the skillset, and take advantage of the stupidity of the enemy AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

ok... story time...

i went to do the quet to get EBON ESCAPE... the eotn skill...

i had a go with my mesmer which runs a very good - moderatly fun build
i killed the mobs .... and i do mean mobs... in under 4 minutes... with my paragon... IMBAGON as many people call it (i dont get it XD) had to do it 4 times because he is so overpowered and so imba spamming 1,2,3...

Maybe it's because you can put more damage on your Mesmer? Cry of Pain, and other armour-ignoring damage.

The Imbagon is DEFENSE, not complete OFFENSE, although it does carry a substantial amount of single-target damage.

Quote:

stop all this trashtalk about overpowered spearthrowing classes and if you really dislike it just leave the forum and let us spearthrowing losers and no experience and noobies spam our 1,2,3 at each other while you go be pro playing something else like um... runescape... with your large capacity for pro gaming im sure you'll rock overthere

Who said I dislike it? I like the class myself, but I still believe it deserves a nerf because it's so overpowered. If you understood that and wasn't so ignorant towards it's power, even through reading how overpowered it is...

(Including non-PvE only builds such as Imbagon.)

Some people just need to learn to face the truth and stop being carebears. Seriously.

Adja1005 · May 07, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I fail to see the logic here.
1 Imbagon makes the entire party already practically invincible, so you can use the rest of the party for damage to surpass that of an Imbagon.

My point is that while Ursans have huge DPS and take seconds to smash through PvE mobs while soaking up masses of damage due to increased health. Imbagons have good defense to allow their lower DPS groups to survive longer against difficult PvE mobs but take longer to get through PvE mobs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Hex removal says hi.
You can say Soothing Images would screw up a Warrior aswell. With your logic, spikes can't happen then.

You said there was no way to remove buffs from Paragons and i provided two skills which could be used to atleast hinder or halt their use of shouts, chants and adrenal skills. And even with hex removal its still possible to use those skills and hinder a Paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Again, hex removal.
And as said many times, just because there are counters doesn't stop things being overpowered.

Agreed, but if used effectively these counters can be usefull at hindering a Paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yeah, you can solo the majority of the game if you really devote yourself to it, study the skillsets ect.
It doesn't take a genious to note down the counters needed, make the skillset, and take advantage of the stupidity of the enemy AI.

While this is true for some classes it isn't for a vast majority of them. On their own Paragons are weak and only really become great when in a party. I suggest you go find a Paragon on their own in an AB match and see how long he/she lasts. Even in PvE a solo Paragon will struggle to maintain a steady DPS against multiple enemies dealing heavy DPS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Who said I dislike it? I like the class myself, but I still believe it deserves a nerf because it's so overpowered. If you understood that and wasn't so ignorant towards it's power, even through reading how overpowered it is...

(Including non-PvE only builds such as Imbagon.)

Some people just need to learn to face the truth and stop being carebears. Seriously.

And some people need to realise that Paragon's don't need to be nerfed its the SY! skill that many Paragons use that needs to be nerfed. That +100 armour bonus is a little too overpowered even when used by other classes.

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

My point is that while Ursans have huge DPS and take seconds to smash through PvE mobs while soaking up masses of damage due to increased health. Imbagons have good defense to allow their lower DPS groups to survive longer against difficult PvE mobs but take longer to get through PvE mobs.

Then why bring up an 8-Imbagon group?

Quote:

You said there was no way to remove buffs from Paragons and i provided two skills which could be used to atleast hinder or halt their use of shouts, chants and adrenal skills. And even with hex removal its still possible to use those skills and hinder a Paragon.

Ah yeah, REMOVE, not PREVENT.

Quote:

Agreed, but if used effectively these counters can be usefull at hindering a Paragon.

Agreed, but if hex removal can be managed it's gg to these counters.

Quote:

While this is true for some classes it isn't for a vast majority of them. On their own Paragons are weak and only really become great when in a party. I suggest you go find a Paragon on their own in an AB match and see how long he/she lasts. Even in PvE a solo Paragon will struggle to maintain a steady DPS against multiple enemies dealing heavy DPS.

Because you're really going to be going solo with a Paragon, or in general anywhere?
No, I'm not talking about farming, I'm talking about playing with your party, which is more...normal play.

And yeah, a guildie of mine devised a solo Paragon build. :>

Quote:

And some people need to realise that Paragon's don't need to be nerfed its the SY! skill that many Paragons use that needs to be nerfed. That +100 armour bonus is a little too overpowered even when used by other classes.

If you look at it from a PvP point of view, you'll understand. Heck, you don't even need to look at it from PvP.

Just read the things they are capable of:

Unremovable buffs.
Stupid spear damage.
Neverending buffs.
Extremely strong in defensive support and offensive capability, sure other classes do it, but not THAT good.

And before you come out with that "It can be countered" crap, if the vast majority of this game's skills can be countered, it means that the game is 100% balanced?
Wrong by a longshot.

That's like saying that the Shadow Walk -> Enchant Spam build (Roughly 500 DPS) wasn't overpowered because Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit exist.

Adja1005 · May 07, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Then why bring up an 8-Imbagon group?

What i was trying to express was the simple tortoise and the hare idea which if you know the story you would understand. Ursans are like the hare, they take more damage but kill everything quickly before taking fatal damage. Now the Imbagaon group is the tortoise, slow and steady, moderate DPS with higher defense to last longer in fights. Start nerfing Paragon skills and you end up with a build/class that has mediocre defense and moderate damage. Then we'll start seeing more and more Ursangons (if this happens i claim this phrase :P).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Ah yeah, REMOVE, not PREVENT.

Same concept as condoms mate, wouldn't you rather prevent than deal with a pregnancy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Because you're really going to be going solo with a Paragon, or in general anywhere?
No, I'm not talking about farming, I'm talking about playing with your party, which is more...normal play.

My point with solo farming was that Paragon's only ever come across as "imbalanced and overpowered" when in a group. But when on their own they tend to really suck. Where as classes, like monks which i mentioned, seem to be able to solo everything (Great Destroyer anyone?) without problem. Now that is an overpowered and somewhat imbalanced class if it can do things which other classes struggle to do with a full group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And yeah, a guildie of mine devised a solo Paragon build. :>

Wouldn't happen to have been the Paratrooper build was it? :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Just read the things they are capable of:

Unremovable buffs.
Stupid spear damage.
Neverending buffs.
Extremely strong in defensive support and offensive capability, sure other classes do it, but not THAT good.

Perfectly valid points i agree but when you look at it thats why Paragon's seem to overpowered. No other class, except perhaps Monks, can be so effective in a party and help save them from a wipe. Its the why Anet created them to be this way, to give amazing party support but be almost useless on their own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And before you come out with that "It can be countered" crap, if the vast majority of this game's skills can be countered, it means that the game is 100% balanced?
Wrong by a longshot.

I'm not sure why you said that specifically, not once did i say "oh but X skill counters Y skill!". All i did was mention two skills that could be used to perhaps hinder how often a Paragon uses chants, shouts or adrenal skills. And not once did i say GW was balanced (because i agree its a long way from balanced), all i said was that in the larger scheme of things Paragons are balanced when compared to a lot of classes.

Why do i say that? Because for a Paragon to be effective it requires a group where as a lot of classes in GW can do many things solo that a Paragon just cant hope to do solo.

Bobby2 · May 07, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

this is hilarious... even to read...

paragons? overpowered...? lol?

erm.. first off everyone has his own good points... and i stress this for the gazillianth time. paragons just happen to be a great front to midliner... pvp? comon you have to be joking... unless they are in HA or GvG they are erm.... retarded...

try them in AB and Ta or HB or RA... then pls let me know when you have edited the thing... thnx...

some ppl really do talk out of their behinds...

Whoops. You just failed.

Tyla · May 07, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

Same concept as condoms mate, wouldn't you rather prevent than deal with a pregnancy?

Err...
There is a difference between removing and preventing you know.
If you remove something, you take it away.
If you prevent something, you stop it from happening.

There is no way you can remove Mending Refrain or Aggressive Refrain when it's up.

Quote:

My point with solo farming was that Paragon's only ever come across as "imbalanced and overpowered" when in a group. But when on their own they tend to really suck. Where as classes, like monks which i mentioned, seem to be able to solo everything (Great Destroyer anyone?) without problem. Now that is an overpowered and somewhat imbalanced class if it can do things which other classes struggle to do with a full group.

I thought we were talking about normal play and not solo'ing?
This isn't the farming forum.

Quote:

Wouldn't happen to have been the Paratrooper build was it? :P

It wasn't really the FoW Paratrooper, and it was specifically designed to take on the majority of melee mobs.
Maybe I'm wrong, could be the first time I seen it.

And wait, did you just point out another solo Paragon build?

These things belong in the farming forum anyway. I could call you ignorant at this point, but at the same time I would be right in calling myself ignorant for pointing out a farming build in a general PvE discussion.

Quote:

Perfectly valid points i agree but when you look at it thats why Paragon's seem to overpowered. No other class, except perhaps Monks, can be so effective in a party and help save them from a wipe. Its the why Anet created them to be this way, to give amazing party support but be almost useless on their own.

Because ANet haven't done stupid things before?

Quote:

I'm not sure why you said that specifically, not once did i say "oh but X skill counters Y skill!". All i did was mention two skills that could be used to perhaps hinder how often a Paragon uses chants, shouts or adrenal skills. And not once did i say GW was balanced (because i agree its a long way from balanced), all i said was that in the larger scheme of things Paragons are balanced when compared to a lot of classes.

It was aimed at your current mentality. Again, just because there are counters doesn't mean it can't be overpowered.

Quote:

Why do i say that? Because for a Paragon to be effective it requires a group where as a lot of classes in GW can do many things solo that a Paragon just cant hope to do solo.

Again, this isn't the farming forum.

Kale Ironfist · May 07, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adja1005

I'm not sure why you said that specifically, not once did i say "oh but X skill counters Y skill!". All i did was mention two skills that could be used to perhaps hinder how often a Paragon uses chants, shouts or adrenal skills. And not once did i say GW was balanced (because i agree its a long way from balanced), all i said was that in the larger scheme of things Paragons are balanced when compared to a lot of classes.

Why do i say that? Because for a Paragon to be effective it requires a group where as a lot of classes in GW can do many things solo that a Paragon just cant hope to do solo.

Those two skills you mention suck; they are terrible skills. Decent hex removal (which every team brings) absolutely destroys any use the skills had in the first place.

Also, how is requiring a group a disadvantage, when the entire point of the game to be in a team and work together?

Adja1005 · May 07, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Err...
There is a difference between removing and preventing you know.
If you remove something, you take it away.
If you prevent something, you stop it from happening.

There is no way you can remove Mending Refrain or Aggressive Refrain when it's up.

I didn't suggest those two skills to remove, i suggested them as a possible way to help prevent Paragon's from using buffs. Re-read what i said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I thought we were talking about normal play and not solo'ing?
This isn't the farming forum.

You assumed wrong. You stated Paragons are overpowered, i was pointing out that in groups they can be. But on their own their definately not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It wasn't really the FoW Paratrooper, and it was specifically designed to take on the majority of melee mobs.
Maybe I'm wrong, could be the first time I seen it.

And wait, did you just point out another solo Paragon build?

Well at this moment the "Paratrooper" build and your friends build could quite possibly be the same build, with slight variations. And when you compare Paragons to the other classes there just isn't that many solo builds for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

These things belong in the farming forum anyway. I could call you ignorant at this point, but at the same time I would be right in calling myself ignorant for pointing out a farming build in a general PvE discussion.

We've both gone semi off-topic but i wouldnt say we were ignorant for talking about farming builds in the general PvE section. Not when the OP asked for motivation to play a Paragon, some people might be more inclined to play a specific class if they knew there were working builds to solo bosses or areas as farming has become a big thing in GW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Because ANet haven't done stupid things before?

Anet designed the game how they wanted it to be, what you or i think might be stupid is possibly perfectly valid for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It was aimed at your current mentality. Again, just because there are counters doesn't mean it can't be overpowered.

I didn't say that because of the two skills i mentioned Paragons are balanced, i merely mentioned them as a possible way to hinder the use of those unremovable buffs you were whining about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Again, this isn't the farming forum.

Again you've missed the point. How can you say a single class is overpowered when it struggles to solo areas or bosses in the game? Yet there are plenty of classes in GW that can be highly effective at soloing and grouping. For a class to be overpowered i'd say it atleast has to be able to power through areas or bosses on its own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Those two skills you mention suck; they are terrible skills. Decent hex removal (which every team brings) absolutely destroys any use the skills had in the first place.

Also, how is requiring a group a disadvantage, when the entire point of the game to be in a team and work together?

I didn't mention they were perfect skills to use, i just pointed out that there are skills available to help hinder a Paragons buffs. And to say every team brings a hex removal in PvP is a huge assumption to make.

Have you never heard of farming? soloing? some people enjoy playing on their own for fun or for the hope in getting rare drops. While Paragons are not totally useless on their own they have a larger disadvantage when alone compared to certain classes. I suggest you catch a Paragon on their own in AB and see how long they survive.

I think some people are ignoring the point of my posts. Paragons aren't imbalanced, its a specific build that has caused them to become hugely powerfull in PvE. And to say an entire class needs nerfing because of one build is well, stupid. If anything needs nerfing its SY! or Ursan. Because at the current moment unless you go Ursan it can be very hard to get into high end PvE groups. And the Imbagon build provides a nice counter for those wanting to go non-Ursanway in high end PvE.

Bront · May 08, 2008, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

No kidding.
[skill]cruel spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill] - [skill]fall back[/skill]
[skill]eviscerate[/skill][skill]Penetrating blow[/skill] - [skill]charge[/skill]
Notice teh similaritahz
Paragons could rule AB

Fixed the comparison for you

Only negatives are the Paragon requires a bit more energy, but Leadership takes care of that, so the Paragon is superior in every other way with those.

[DE] · May 08, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Ranged damage that can almost equal a warrior.

Near-Infinite +100 AL to your entire team in PvE

Unstrippable Buffs

Mr Pink57 · May 08, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyro maniac

14, 12, 7

or unless you're running a major rune.

Use the major rune.

pink

Axel Zinfandel · May 08, 2008, 04:46 AM // 04:46

I think this thread needs to die. It's purpose has been achieved and now people are just bitching.

So... +1

Kale Ironfist · May 08, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Have you never heard of farming? soloing? some people enjoy playing on their own for fun or for the hope in getting rare drops. While Paragons are not totally useless on their own they have a larger disadvantage when alone compared to certain classes. I suggest you catch a Paragon on their own in AB and see how long they survive.

A Paragon with a build designed to play on a skirmish would be a weaker version of the CripShot Ranger. Also, catching anyone alone, when they don't have a specific build to play as a solo character, will kill them, regardless of profession.

Again, this game is all about being in a team. Farming doesn't further you in terms of the ability to access game content, and Soloing tends to not get you very far either. Both may help you in obtaining content, but access to it is another matter entirely.